КЛУБ ПРАВОВОЙ ПОДДЕРЖКИ АВТОМОБИЛИСТОВ
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Форум » Вопросы, не связанные с КоАП » Гражданское право » Аренда.
Аренда.
ДоцентДата: Вторник, 06.01.2009, 10:11 | Сообщение # 21
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Причем тут суб аренда?

Ошибочка вышла, но это без разницы, ибо правовые отношения арендатора и субарендатора регламентируются законодательством одинаково.

Quote (серег@)
НЕ совсем понял. По каким причинам его можно признать ничтожным. Я у них никакого имущества в аренду не брал, кроме стены у которой стоял и пола в размере 40 квадратов.

Дело не в имуществе. Слово "имущество" имеет общее понятие относительно предмета аренды, (помещение, земля, автомашина, стелаж, часы или иное - это всё имущество). Вот именно по этим причинам данный Договор, который находится у них, и является ничтожным.
Поясню:
В силу ст. 432 ГК РФ договор считается заключённым, если между сторонами, в требуемой и подлежащих случаях форме, достигнуто соглашение по всем существенным условиям Договора.
В данном случае, существенным условием Договора является предмет Договора, т.е. помещение, которое ты "взял" в аренду.
А следовательно, данный спорный Договор регулирует отношения сторон по передаче имущества в аренду в соответствии со ст. 606-625 ГК РФ. А теперь логично переходим к главному:
В соответствии с ч. 3 ст. 607 ГК РФ в Договоре аренды должны быть указаны данные, позволяющие определённо установить имущество, подлежащее передаче арендатору в качестве аренды. При отсутствии этих данных в Договоре, условие об объекте, подлежащем передаче в аренду, считается не согласованным сторонами, а соответствующий Договор не считается заключённым.
Приведённый в Договоре метраж в 40 метров на общей площади в 500 метров не даёт чёткого определения имущества, подлежащего сдачи в аренду.

Quote (серег@)
Арендатор съехал и Арендодатель предложил составить договор аренды непосредственно с хозяином.

Кстати, в связи с этим, напрашивается ещё один вопрос:
Арендатор съехал с арендуемого помещения в силу того, что у него закончился срок аренды или же в силу иных причин?


Если не мы, то кто?
 
ДоцентДата: Вторник, 06.01.2009, 10:36 | Сообщение # 22
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В договоре в п. 5.1 прописано, что в обеспечение арендной платы Арендатор передает Арендодателю имущество.

Это выражение не определённое в правовом смысле, ибо в соответствии с со ст. 5 закона О Залоге прописано, что:
Законом или договором может быть предусмотрено, что заложенное имущество остается у залогодателя либо передается во владение залогодержателю (заклад).
Буквального трактования "заклада" или того, что заложенное имущество передаётся во владение залогодержателя у вас нет. Следовательно, заложенное имущество остаётся у тебя, т.е. у залогодателя и удержание такового является неправомерным.

Quote (серег@)
Когда съезжал, 4 стелажа забрал с собой. 7 осталось на складе.
Согласно акта передачи в залоге 12 стелажей, а по факту у них только 7. Можно еще и мозги попудрить, куда мол дели еще 4.

Ну а здесь с тобой нельзя не согласиться, если, конечно, не было акта приёма-сдачи заложенного имущества из под ведения так называемого "залогодержателя".


Если не мы, то кто?
 
GendalfДата: Среда, 07.01.2009, 13:39 | Сообщение # 23
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Арендатор съехал с арендуемого помещения в силу того, что у него закончился срок аренды или же в силу иных причин?

Иных. Там всё очень сложно и запущено. В общем, надоело платить аренду, собрались и переехали, оставив большой (или не очень) долг. С учетом того, что здание строилось, отделывалось и обустраивалось как автосалон под конкретного арендатора, всё становится еще сложнее...


тише едешь - дело мастера боится
говорят на земле был бог, говорят учил добру...

!!!иwɐLон хdǝʚʚ ʁɔvʎнdǝʚǝdǝu dиw !!!!ɐwʎ ɔ vǝmоɔ dиw
 
ДоцентДата: Пятница, 09.01.2009, 21:27 | Сообщение # 24
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Иных. Там всё очень сложно и запущено. В общем, надоело платить аренду, собрались и переехали, оставив большой (или не очень) долг.

Ну, по большому счёту, это я спросил так, для себя, на случай дальнейших неопределённых ситуаций.
Надеюсь Серёга найдёт компромиссное решение для разруливания данной ситуации. Ну а мы поможем, чем можем.
Ну а сейчас, пожалуй, единственный вариант вытащить своё имущество из незаконного удержания, это привлечь милицию.


Если не мы, то кто?
 
серег@Дата: Суббота, 10.01.2009, 20:17 | Сообщение # 25
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Я наверное не совсем правильно сделал. Приехал. Начальства нет. Отдыхают. Взял ключи от бокса у механиков, открыл и вывез свое имущество.
 
ДоцентДата: Суббота, 10.01.2009, 21:19 | Сообщение # 26
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Я наверное не совсем правильно сделал.

По большому счёту, да. Действия твои были не совсем законны. И в случае обращения контрагента к правоохранительным органам с заявлением о краже, (надеюсь, что ему это не надо), нервы тебе попортят, но....
Серёга, надеюсь ты подстраховался и при вывозе имущества были свидетели из тех же самых механиков, которые смогут подтвердить, что ты, кроме принадлежащего тебе по праву частной собственности имущества, ничего более не взял. Я понимаю, что механики не могут знать, что принадлежит тебе, а что нет, но визуально они видели, что ты взял определённое имущество и смогут показать какое.


Если не мы, то кто?
 
серег@Дата: Вторник, 13.01.2009, 22:26 | Сообщение # 27
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Действия твои были не совсем законны. И в случае обращения контрагента к правоохранительным органам с заявлением о краже, (надеюсь, что ему это не надо), нервы тебе попортят, но....

А в чем незаконность? Договора нет. Мне заявили, чтоб я собрал свое имущество и выматывался, так как я нахожусь на данной территории не законно. Если договора нет, то естественно мое пребывание было не законно. Если договор не был подписан, значит и нет залога и нет никаких обязательств. Я им ничего не должен.

Вывозилось в присутствии механиков. В боксе было 7 стелажей и сломанный стенд для акустики. Это все и было вывезено. По не подписанному акту залога, им передовалось имущество в виде 12 стелажей. Так что 4 стелажа куда то испарились.

 
ДоцентДата: Среда, 14.01.2009, 13:41 | Сообщение # 28
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А в чем незаконность? Договора нет. Мне заявили, чтоб я собрал свое имущество и выматывался, так как я нахожусь на данной территории не законно. Если договора нет, то естественно мое пребывание было не законно. Если договор не был подписан, значит и нет залога и нет никаких обязательств. Я им ничего не должен

Правильно. Заявить то заявили, НО.... Нет Договора, а значит нет никаких отношений. И следовательно, ты, не имел законного права находится на частной территории без соответствующего разрешения, а уж тем более изымать или забирать что-либо, даже если это и принадлежит тебе. В этом случае нужно заручатся поддержкой закона, (то бишь милиции).
А то с твоих слов получается примерно так:
Пошёл Мужичок погулять по городу да и увидел строенице красивое. Дай, думает, зайду, посмотрю, что к чему. Зашёл. Вау, красотища то кока. А не уж то при такой красоте и богатств нет никаких. Открыл ларчик увиденный и прихватил из него малу-кучу разностей всяких, ибо вспомнил он, что такие же точно и у него были.

А теперь постарайся встать на их сторону:
Был когда то у меня арендатор. Ну не сговорились мы о цене и съехал он из дома заветного со всем своим имуществом нажитым. А спустя месяцок прикатил на санях берёзовых. Дворовые мои ему дверцу открыли, поскольку знавали его и в своё время водочку вместе с ним откушивали. И пока я с девахами в баньке развлекался, он и вывез из дома всё, что непосилным моим трудом нажито.

Я понимаю, это тебе будет психологически трудно, но в нашем деле надо просматривать все возможные стороны и пути отступления и рассматривать такие случаи в соответствии с законом ВСЕСТОРОННЕ.


Если не мы, то кто?
 
серег@Дата: Среда, 14.01.2009, 23:01 | Сообщение # 29
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Нет Договора, а значит нет никаких отношений. И следовательно, ты, не имел законного права находится на частной территории без соответствующего разрешения,

Когда узнал об отсутствии договора, я это понял. Все мои потуги были бы бессмысленны. Закон на их стороне. Я смирился и съехал.
Quote (Доцент)
а уж тем более изымать или забирать что-либо, даже если это и принадлежит тебе

Это как? Просто уйти домой и все бросить? Мне сказали ОДНОЗНАЧНО. Собирай все свое барахло и за дверь, ты здесь не законно.
Quote (Доцент)
В этом случае нужно заручатся поддержкой закона, (то бишь милиции).

Что я им могу предьявить (милиции)? Договора ведь нет.
Quote (Доцент)
А то с твоих слов получается примерно так:
Пошёл Мужичок погулять по городу да и увидел строенице красивое.

Quote (Доцент)
А не уж то при такой красоте и богатств нет никаких. Открыл ларчик увиденный и прихватил из него малу-кучу разностей всяких, ибо вспомнил он, что такие же точно и у него были.

С моих слов получается так:
В поисках правды сермяжной и теплого уголка, забрел мужичок в чужую избу. Тепло, светло, стол накрыт. Решил мужичок червячка заморить. Снял свои валенки и за стол.
Входит хозяйка. Ах ты смерд!!!! Ну ка вон из избы!!! Мужичок взмолился. В лик ей смотря глазами парами винными не затуманенными, челом бьет, а она его метлой поганой гонит. Обиженный до сердца кровоточещего пронзенного стрелою вражьей, Бросает мужичок свои валенки и босяком из избы.
ИМХО в валенках пришел, в них и ушел. Я половицы не отковыривал и с собой не забирал. Чужое мужичку не надобно.
Quote (Доцент)
А теперь постарайся встать на их сторону:

Как не пытался, не получилось. Постараюсь. Забрел "бедолага" на огонек. Я ему: Нехресть, ты чо удумал, ну ка вон из избы!!!! Ты тут не законно!!!! Перед тем как выпустить за дверь "бедолагу" предварительно раздел последнего, вдруг барахлишко пригодится или "бедолага" выкупит его у меня за то, что незванно посетил меня.
 
ДоцентДата: Четверг, 15.01.2009, 09:46 | Сообщение # 30
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а уж тем более изымать или забирать что-либо, даже если это и принадлежит тебе

Quote (серег@)
Это как? Просто уйти домой и все бросить? Мне сказали ОДНОЗНАЧНО. Собирай все свое барахло и за дверь, ты здесь не законно.

Я имел ввиду немного другое.
В момент, когда ты выезжал из занимаемого помещения, ты забрал, по возможности, (не берётся в расчёт то, что тебе не отдали), всё тебе принадлежащее. Притензий к этому нет и предъявить тебе они ничего не смогут ибо всё происходило в их присутствии и с их согласия. А вот дальнейшие твои действия, т.е. незаконное проникновение, (без согласия собственника), на частную территорию, может ими быть "разыграно" как угодно.

Quote (серег@)
Что я им могу предьявить (милиции)? Договора ведь нет.

Правильно, Договора нет. Но есть, во всяком случае, я надеюсь на это, документы. подтверждающие, что данное имущество, (стелажи и т.д.), принадлежат тебе по праву собственности и незаконное их удержание со стороны бывшего арендодателя является нарушением твоего имущественного права со всеми вытекающими из этого последствиями.
И если бы ты заручился поддержкой милиции и сообщил им о незаконном удержании, а арендодатель при этом не предъявил Договор, то законность и правда была бы на твоей стороне.



Если не мы, то кто?
 
RaidToxДата: Понедельник, 06.02.2017, 12:54 | Сообщение # 31
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